How serious could shoplifting be?

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The law is pretty

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Black and white,

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but memory

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and the perception of the witnesses.

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is usually pretty gray.

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This is Christina

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Williams with Just Criminal Law

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And David Mann, legal

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storytelling specialist.

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Well, as you know,

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I work with you and with other firms on

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telling legal stories

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and especially with criminal cases.

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The memory of the witnesses is critical

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to the case on both sides.

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So what about memory?

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Is it like you say, gray?

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It absolutely is.

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Especially when people

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are put in circumstances.

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That are stressful or. Traumatic.

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And you know what

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one person might pay attention to?

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Another person may not.

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And so

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as soon as someone

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is going through an event,

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what they key in on

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or what they remember or, really.

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Is, is.

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You know, the sky’s the limit.

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And sometimes they miss very important

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details.

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And so, you know, it is.

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Very difficult.

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In. Cases. Where, you know, you just.

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Have two people say it’s a

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he said, she said. Kind of. Case.

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And you’ve got,

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Say the alleged.

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Victim giving one.

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Side of the story.

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And perhaps. The accused.

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Giving another. Side of the story.

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It it’s

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really up to the jury

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to sort out what happened.

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And that can be.

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A very difficult. Decision.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it’s in our regular lives

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when it’s not on trial,

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we tell stories about things

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that happened to us in the past.

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We tell we

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we share our memories with each other.

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And I think we all kind of have noticed

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that stories can shift around

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as the memory starts

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to filter

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certain details out,

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or add certain ones back in.

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We grow up, we see them differently.

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So the degree of importance

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that this type of thing

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has in a in a criminal case

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is astronomical.

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So tell me a little more,

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I guess

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maybe about how you’ve seen witnesses,

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the memory of a witness impact

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the verdict of a jury

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and how that stuff can

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sort of shift around.

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Absolutely.

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You know, I have a.

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Particular case that I always.

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Think of when it comes to,

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memory and perception.

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And, you know, it.

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Involved two teenage girls.

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Who were having a slumber party

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and my client, who is the.

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Stepdad. Of one of.

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The girls, was.

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Trying to plan Mother’s.

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Day breakfast for his wife.

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And, you know, he’s,

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Decided that he’ll.

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Invite.

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The girls to participate.

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In the breakfast

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and what they were going to have.

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So he goes.

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Into the bedroom of his. Stepdaughter.

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And he, you know, tries to.

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Wake up the girls to.

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Ask them, you know, do you want to help.

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With breakfast?

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What should we have?

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And,

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he, you know, grabs.

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Their toes.

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And is, you know,

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trying to kind of joke with them

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a little bit to get them to wake up

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because they’re not really

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wanting to wake up. And,

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one of the.

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Girls.

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The, the friend.

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Of his stepdaughter, is actually.

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Kind of falling out of the bed.

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Because they’re.

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Sharing this twin bed. And so.

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He scoops her up and scoops her back.

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Into bed,

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and this kind of alarms her and

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and upsets. Her.

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And she really is. You know.

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Half awake, half asleep.

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And,

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She, he ends up

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leaving, but she gets upset and tries to.

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Call her mom.

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And, you know, to keep in mind.

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The friend is right there with her.

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And, you know,

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they’re both in the same bedroom

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in this little bed.

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But, you know, the

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the girl is for some reason upset.

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And so her mom doesn’t answer the phone.

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And the more.

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She tries to.

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Call her mom, the more. Upset she gets.

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Well, by.

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The time

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her mom answers,

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you know, she’s crying

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and she says, you know, Mr..

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Smith,

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scooped.

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Me into bed and he touched my butt.

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He grabbed my butt.

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And,

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so the mom is alarmed and upset,

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and she ends up calling.

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The daughter’s father, who’s at work.

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And, you know,

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saying it turns into kind of this.

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She’s.

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Then relaying what happened.

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To the father.

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And he’s, you know.

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Upset because his daughter’s upset.

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So he races.

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To my client’s house.

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And, you know, by the time.

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He gets there, he’s he’s.

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Infuriated,

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and he punches my client in the face.

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And so, The the cops get called.

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They show up.

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And, you know, the the teenage girl.

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Says.

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The same thing.

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You know, he touched my butt.

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And, you know,

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my client is saying, hey,

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he punched me in the face.

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And so, you know.

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Both sides are a little bit

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worried about.

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Okay, who’s going to be in trouble,

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what’s going to happen here?

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And they send the teenage.

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Girl to the police.

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Department with her family.

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And, on the way.

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To the police department,

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they stop at the gas. Station and talk.

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A it.

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And then,

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who knows what was said

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in that conversation.

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But by the time they get to.

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The police.

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Station, the girl makes.

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Her official. Statement.

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And her. Official.

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Statement. Is. That,

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my client

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was tickling her toes and then was.

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Massaging up her leg.

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You know, her ankle.

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Her calf, her thigh.

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And then he put his hands

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in her underwear and groped her butt.

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And so. That’s.

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The statement that,

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The prosecutor decides to go with.

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And they charge my client with.

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A sexual assault.

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Wow.

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That is really quite a story.

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And it has so many elements in it

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that the, memory of the girl is one thing

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at the beginning of the story,

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and then it’s another thing

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by the time she gets to trial

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and that

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in the cases that I’ve worked on, too,

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I’ve seen that, that is kind of a pattern

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that happens sometimes is especially,

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victims of assault or alleged

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victims of assault

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will have very different stories.

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And it’s

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as time goes by and it sounds to me like,

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would you agree that

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that the best play, in a way,

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the best strategy for a defendant

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is to keep their story

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as consistent as possible?

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Does that work?

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Well, you know this.

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My advice doesn’t change

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in this situation.

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The best thing for the defendant to.

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Do is. To not make a statement.

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You know, but in this particular case,

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he was reporting an.

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Assault, so he.

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Was talking to the police, saying,

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hey, I just got punched in the face.

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And, you know, the.

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That it’s like, once he started talking,

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he just. Kept talking.

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Now, his. Story. Didn’t ever change.

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It was always the same.

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And you’re. Right, that is usually.

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An indication

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that somebody is telling the truth.

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And, you know, the.

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Best advice is if you do happen to be.

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Making a statement,

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by all means

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don’t make multiple statements,

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because again, there

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there comes a point where you tell.

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A story.

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The first time and you.

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Leave out details.

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And then the more you tell it,

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the more the details might change.

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Not because, you know you’re lying, but.

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Because you forgot to add a detail

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or you thought about.

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It and, you know, you kind of fill in.

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Well, this must have happened

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when really you may not have any.

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Idea whether it happened exactly that.

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Way or not.

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So the best thing is, you know,

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don’t make a statement.

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And by all means,

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if you make a statement, only make one.

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Yes. Well, a lot of these,

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best pieces of

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advice here that you have do

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also include having a good lawyer.

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So how would they get in touch with you?

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Sure.

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We’ll include a link in the description

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where they can call, text

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or chat with a member of my team

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anytime, day or night.

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Here at Just Criminal

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Law, we know you only get one shot at.

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Justice. So make yours count.